Midday with J&W: What did you think of the summit?

The Jayme & Wickett Podcast
Tuesday, June 12th

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

An attitude is hey big news not only America Natalie across the pond across the globe the big story. We're gonna get your reaction to the meeting between president Donald Trump and Kim Jung Hyun in Singapore. Now take some phone calls you can give us your thoughts on FaceBook they sign an agreement today at. There'll be some denuclearization. Attempts by a the north Koreans. But we wanted to go right to the heart of it and get the latest we start with ABC's Tom rivers on the KM BZ knew his line Tom there was some handshaking there was a lunch but did anything concrete. Come out of this meeting. Well well. They had to check on that idea like yeah ala up to find out what's going on there. With ABC's Tom rivers. Obviously it something a rise as. And anything. Still figuring that out basically. What with the agreement was. It's based on depending on who you believe is that the goalie yours to lead to the denuclearization. Denuclearization of that peninsula. And so there seems to have been an agreement that that might actually happened. And we'll see if that actually does there was talk about future meetings may be necessary the president from. On May be would invite Camden new into the White House and that perhaps present company at some point oh to North Korea. But they've also made statements and it and it looked really good the pictures that we sign and feel free away in 2290. Or 5767798. About what you thought of the meeting on no doubt president trump does is getting a lot of credit for the fact that this was pretty monumental this was the first time that we had these two leaders that work. Getting together in the same room and the fact that they have vowed to you. Make a pretty major change in terms of the regime in North Korea is pretty amazing that we can take care we can take your tax and your calls it like to weigh in on what you thought. Of that summits. And just a couple of text and the tax line. And it's of this a while ago. That we should be eight that were concerned about truck turning his back on her allies that was and we talked a little bit about yesterday. But again we talked to our rivers a little earlier today and he really as we were to get peppery heat relief. Me the comment that it's it's a very big deal of these two leaders got together. And we started off asking if any concrete actually came out of this. Well you know it looks like you know it it is the big. First step. And apparently there is personal relationship now Kim Jung on and the president. On your knowledge it's not a a a done deal it's not in concrete but there are you know Keaton certainly working. And supposedly Kim Jong not a good goal now it immediately. Try to get get rolling on trying to get the steps are going to be inside. So we we watched this thing but again it's something that no other president had been able to accomplish to get this far down the road at least initially. So you know there are a lot of critics doubt they're saying that well you know there's a lot that a lot of stage we're district can fall that is true. But does this president got part of any other one at this stage. So I think yeah that's available a lot of people should just support the process he adults in accordance verify as well along the way. And see what shakes output during at least momentum. Is one thing going in the right direction. Sunday talk up this document that they signed and what we know was in that as as. Ours what they agreed to. Yes at least we know that there are at least in broad vague terms. Talking about the ultimate goal is denuclearization. In the peninsula now that in the whole area in the theater that means not only. North Korean nuclear weapons but it but. This subject that is well that the US. Should keep the nuclear weapons out of that part of the world. Also we've we've had the president they talking about and security guarantees. For North Korea. Jong-Il and his worried that you know couple weeks ago. You want to end up where mr. Qaddafi ended up so and so that was important for him. And also the president talking about military exercises. As well. In itself. Intercourse. Secretary of state had to go now and talk to the South Koreans and saying what bed all meet in god called nervous mayor. Some people feel those companies nuclear security issue for for the felt so there are a lot of different read through this thing. Comfortable be solved overnight but it felt and we don't you and I've ever barge keep tabs on in the coming months. ABC's Tom rivers joining us or 91 KM BZ Tom called me speculative call me media guy call me whatever you want but. Three months ago he was a horrible treacherous dictator who starved his people. Who was able it was massacring people who is people lived in fear of him. And then yesterday president trump called them a good guy a guy he can trust. How am I supposed to believe years of North Korea that the recent memory of Kim Jung and all of a sudden. That's flipped and now he's a guy that we can totally trust. Here's the deal peers and you know you could you can you can get onto that mindset. And say dig your heels then and let's have. US joint military exercise is for the next hundred years. If your moderates or your grandfather fought in Korea. Let's just say it's a good idea that there was an apartment first and we should continue Juan we should continue one with the way things are. If you think outside the box and say let's look at it differently and let's try to actually solved some problems. You come to a very different conclusion. Selector you'll see how it plays out and they're quite frankly it's a big into critical that it doesn't go anywhere. You wrote I haven't lost a whole lot. You lost a few air miles. And the courts are all other options out there. Nobody wants to go down that road but they they're still going to be there next week and next year so I think the possibility out the airport. Solving the problem mr. diplomatically certainly. Out there tantalizingly. Maybe not close with. Which didn't reach you will see to what shakes out but by the preference as it probably gonna be another summit somewhere down the road. Will there be a oh final signing ceremonies somewhere down the road school and elves but it's something that that we all watch with the interest. Tom what do you think of when president trot mentioned the possibility of him coming to the White House. The North Korean president. Yeah. You know what parallel universe script writer were to come up well Brad a couple of years ago. All what you and I might feel whatever aerial and I'd maybe you know you're too. You know you mention what script writer. Tom ten years ago by what is said to you a ten years down the road. Dennis Rodman and Donald Trump will play old largest roles in the denuclearization. Of what is the scariest nations in the world. What would your reaction have Ben. Your daughter you'd go to an agent Hollywood and try to bridge and they do elaborate duke. This country could say no that's that's too far out there that even more further out there than Chardonnay and they'd say oh million had next nick script. Audit one point. But again that we are we are. What role do you believe if any. Mean I watched Dennis Rodman cry and TV like everybody did I watch it live what what what role do you think Rodman actually played with seat. Was he a key factor in this. I don't think he will amid mild Burkle got that you want is. He I think he's I believe a player that was on the side and that everybody's taller and recognize that. I don't I don't believe he was he was instrumental in making it all happened but I you to somebody that would that would Blair. And you know somehow struck Albania friendship or relationship with Kim Jong lawn which I guess. In retrospect wasn't a bad thing and many bearded it helps me subway she performed. Got the ball rolling but I I don't think it was so in which key let's put it well. Tommy that your finger on the pulse of the rest of the world. What does Russia think when they see this what does China think when they see this. The G 678 whatever it is now these days. What what is the reaction from the rest of the world early on a year after president trump and Kim Jung who meet yesterday. He had generally in Europe ever despite what shook out in the end quote back. Penalties in Europe the general. Opponent voted yes it's good it's a positive step. Let's speed this thing let's not let this thing dropped Alex let's let's keep the pressure Ottawa to make sure that we get some modest. That's going to be the general view here same it's been in and Russia. China has got to come at it from a totally different angle which you know 90% old beat goods exported from North Korea go to China. And after a long long period last year China finally says OK we'll play ball and we will. Implored the sanctions as well and that's really girding for North Korea. The base state that did it like Kris Security Council to get the idea around that you. There's some darned good initial progress. At least it should be discussed the Security Council the possibility of lifting some. Some sanctions. And I think you know I think your Ruder agree that bird. We're now Florida down that road yet. But at least that's been got thrown out by Beijing at this stage as early on. After the summit so I guess you know it you're in good progress months down the road. That that told that signal from out from Beijing is going to be even louder. I appreciate the time as always thanks so much. ABC's Tom rivers from the foreign desk as president trump and Kim Jung who meet yesterday first time a sitting US president has met. With the leaders of North Korea. Are your thoughts on what you saw yesterday which you read about what you heard about did anything come out of this that impress you. In anything not come out of this that discourage you or impressed on the other side 5767798. What did you think of the trump Kim Jong Hoon. Summit in Singapore yesterday. 5767798. Little bit later I didn't hear from president trump be sat down with George Stephanopoulos of ABC replaying that in your view. And a couple of pieces but what here from you would think what you saw yesterday what was accomplished in Singapore 5767798. We have been given up anything other than your right I agreed to meet. And I think the meeting was every bit as good for the United States as it was from our North Korea. President trump yesterday in Singapore after the meeting between himself along with Kim Jong-un asking you your impressions of you watching the coverage last night. There wasn't a lot lower those of us watching on TV to consume other then. All the Talking Heads afterwards Aminu was trumping Kim met pat you know at the hotel in Singapore. It looked very weird to see American flag North Korean flag American flag Korean flag America is that that to me that struck a chord with a lot of people by the way because you're putting it. A nation led by a horrendous human being and a dictator on the same level and on par with the United States of America that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. They shook hands he smiled he probably said things that neither one of them understood in theirs in their languages. Then they walked and then there was the two of them with their two translators kind of small talking for a bit. And they went into a room we have no idea what was going on in there there's no recording there's no written record. And they walked acted at the picture thing again sat down at a table. Trump said in English you know it's it was a great meeting tremendous great great great tremendous is always they shook hands then they moved the media out. Of the of the dining area that was in there was a press conference that that trump had a little bit later run but what you saw yesterday. Which I think 57677985767798. Can also texted at 22980. There was a document that was signed. The United States and the DP RK committee established new USD PRK relations in accordance with desire of the people of two countries for peace and prosperity. The two countries will join their efforts to build lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. Reaffirmed its when he sat April 272018. Declaration the DP RK commits to work towards complete needle nuclear station decree pencil peninsula. And the United States and the DP RK commit to recovering POW MIA remains. Including the immediate. Repair those already identified cell. Nothing concrete came out of this other than a foul by North Korea. And it to escalate their efforts. To denuclearization. Of I don't know a whole lot came out of this I don't think either side if you're pro trumping anti trump pro I think eight we have to wait to see it in Tom rivers was pretty spot on. And maybe. You know maybe it didn't need to be monumental steps taken it's it's a pretty big deal that these two got together in the first place. In the same room it looked cool and it was weird to me that they seemed chummy. You know it was just a little bit like you realized you bar and it was just a little to the appearance of friendly to me but maybe. I I asked Tom rivers that they said three months ago we hated this may trump was calling him names. There was a fire and fury comment that little rocket man. And and and we were hearing about the ways people are treated any killed members of his family yet as people live in fear of him. And now he's a good guy now we trust you like how does that happen in a matter of three months. And the first time you meet in your room together you're like that's not all right. It's just seemed really really I I don't open got a lot out of it I believe this is step one. We shall see what happens down the road what did you think 5767798. John your first up I 91 KM BZ would you take a yesterday John. Well again I'm excited at any time we get up and like that. In the were I doing out remember back yeah. Lecture which Clinton. When he hit Israel and the Palestinians. And the air. Chinese. Paper. They were both excited about it and then all of a sudden one week comes out and somebody wanted one more thing and it just spoke the whole thing apart. So your still here your I convinced but it's a good start. Yeah I anytime we can get some like it started in a gallon but you know. I just don't want to get to a chided right now I think we've got to get maybe two more steps and then you're almost ready to just say it's done it but you know. Even just right after that in that we eat they talk about him coming over here and visiting the White House and right away we get. People sitting here. Saying that. You know that means that killed. Lot of people we're gonna bite them to the White House well I think we can't boast. That type of person in the White House or from other countries. No it's always the other side is what we going to. It trying to combat this and not make it Samsung but. I am an independent I like this he all the work. John thank you for your focal then we appreciate it let's go to Bob in 91 KM BZ what's up Bob. Not bad what to think of yesterday's summit. Oh. Overrated. Yeah and acting is hard change just focused on that went out the previous meetings permanent tomorrow. It's amazing how lightly. Terms. Poor performance was. Just brushed aside. To me sessions on believing he can redefine the terms. Idiotic I mean that was the worse a warning though have been a better represented them. From America may follow closely in the middle of translate or relay. And that was headphones I mean it almost insulting thing children people that helped us all the time I mean it's amazing and then. You want to be like you know. And commander just sort them over and over there and make friends who has gotten Rodman's more instrumental. Or what car. And that change can I mean by detail in Okinawa for error. Trump you know for the mean compared to I mean you just embarrassing what it did your allies that we just. You know work orchestra director of the people in the countries that you know. Well there are there aren't there are a lot of people right now Bob wondering how we can start fights with German Chancellor Angela Merkel we can start a fight or disagree with Justin Trudeau the prime minister of Canada. French president mark on how we can have issues with three of our biggest allies. Yet eight vial disgusting inhumane dictator is now gonna possibly get White House invite them. But this is not normal right it's not. And I know this is not a normal president Dan let. And Dennis rob crying on CNN yesterday. It's just charade dead. It's more calls a Bob thanks for yours John Steve stick right there. Read the phones couple more calls at 576779. Aides talking about these Singapore summit between Kim Jong-un and president trump would go to Steve Von KM BZ what's up Steve. I'd do it okay what did you make of the other summit yesterday. Well I think the first thing he's been pointed out is that keep their president trumpet and opened the door and sixty year. And and they did an about turn to. A horrible dictatorship of North Korea. And on top of that you know one of the guys in there there are so because you're kind of chummy with Kim Jong-un in the in the press conference and that kind of I got about their you know their way to get great. How do you expect him to act and yet you're a horrible person Kim Jong as an absolute terrible you know have murdering of a gun you know. But you can't walk into smacked in the head and call me them and got Beecham it's the first step of negotiation it's like when you walk on to a car dealership lot. Guy's gonna come out Aqua cuter well. Yeah that was my problem though was that they acted like they were best buddies instead of being a little more. Like okay war you know war were to world leaders with vastly different views we can beat it ought to meet these diplomatic. But not condone what the other is done. What I am and I think you keep doing exactly that when you shaking your and it smiling and being gently you. If thing I'm opening up conversation between everybody and it comfortable on the conversations. I don't agree with anything you don't but let's talk about I think it's part of the negotiation tactic that part of you know trumpet. I mean look at theirs I will bet you there's not a bigger schmooze around this planet Donald Trump and he he's made deals he's been on both opposed he's been all over the world. I'll bet trumps a real good each loser like you know the first moment you meet him. If you don't know anything about over her you have never met him before I'll but he will schmooze you. And that might have been part of it is is plan yesterday Steve thanks your phone call last where this goes to John nine KM BZK John thanks for anybody. I quickly pay. My my my first point is. I would look for something more along when Ronald Reagan at court child hurt them all I would look at what Donald Trump does play halo. Let your people call over into South Korea. Okay because any time someone in any of these people called into that wrong. There there are shop yes okay so I would look at port something more. Follow that line also I think. Donald Trump. It's fascinated with. Dictator like. So on and they're Russian president I I think he's fascinated with them the cover of the way they control their people. And I don't know what to control the people in this country to wait state. So and the and that and that's what well I mean he's he's friends with. Our enemies. But but he he's he's create Hadley what I ally that doesn't make sense to me. I don't think that'll link your loan to match. Our eye on the Euro loan with the thought. In an odd I would just look at put something more along with our breaking or culture down. I think that that's still a possibility. I don't know we're gonna have to wait and see and again I I think going in one of the things we were told yesterday was. Don't expect and I can add some people. You know what it's all or nothing. And I think some people went in thinking. He's gonna solve the nuclear problem with North Korea and others thought he's gonna bomb completely no pun intended and it's going to be puke all over himself. A lot of people told its lot of you know a lot of different. Analysts and insiders and members of the administration said look. This is going to be one of many meetings and and the next one I don't know where it's going to be it but they're probably will be another one where president trouble get on Air Force One. Fly somewhere Kim Jong-un will get on his plane bring his personal Porta potty. Which is still weird to me and then they'll meet somewhere and have another. I I believe maybe we'll get some of that mr. Gorbachev tear down that wall stuff. I don't know this is step one. And I don't think we got. Darn near anything out of this yesterday. But it's a step and it was really. Like I I put up on Twitter yesterday a sit there watch and Lee hates politics in my life hates politics elect. But I am a we're watching it and and I even she said this is pretty amazing you know love him or hate him. It's great to see a president sitting with the leader of North Korea. Now one right now what is the big act the big question right. You know we've heard anything in six months then go back and you say hey what happened to XYZ I I almost believe that the mid terms could potentially be swayed by it's his re election. Could be swayed by this if nothing happens. I think from here but there's either silence is golden or nothing came out of this will be the the rhetoric used by either side. If something else happens let's say that we find out that they have you know turned over all of their hydrogen bombs or whatever. That could sway the mid terms and the blue suit nominee that supposedly coming could be a little more purple. So I think this'll have some long lasting effect. After we see meet today's June 12. After we see what happens in July and August towards towards moving so. I take it with what you want you can read the entire agreement to both signed up on her FaceBook page welcome back to this and plus next hour. President trump sat down with ABC's George Stephanopoulos. W part one of that coming up next hour. Certain story comes to us out of CBS news and this was about a valedictorian. And it. You know your valedictorian you to give that speech and she is claiming that administrators there are censored part of her graduation speech the senate Petaluma California a little bit north as infants is now. A high school valedictorian her says administrators censored part of her graduation speech which she spoke about the school's handling of alleged sexual assault. Seventeen year old blue LaBelle sites says her Mike was turned off when she spoke about an alleged sexual assault. Since you won the user graduation address at address at the high school to remind her classmates of the obstacles they've overcome. But when she veered off her group speech to bring up the issue of sexual assault on campus. I original line her Mike then went silent so this was the line. At around it I got a writing area. Like it's. You. Needed attack. Amy it rates but we. Speak. Mean it's eighteen which is. Even so people can't sneak peek. They cut her offs. So she end up going back to her seat and she later posted the full speech online including the part that was cut off and which included as part. Even learning on campus on which some people defend perpetrators of sexual assault and silence their victims we didn't let us out we didn't let that drags down. She said she'd filed a police report after she was sexually assaulted on campus last fall but she doesn't feel like the school did enough to protect her after the alleged attack. Eyes she told a correspondent for CBS news and I can prevent this from happening to more girls that would be good enough for me she's sad. She was warned multiple times that her Mike would be turned off if she deviated from the pre approved speech. And that schools. And police is intact and there are 5767798. There was this the right move by the school was the that the the the school at the rights to cut the Mike when she started going to get to submit that speech practiced this will I see it and approve it. And somebody I'm sure is always sit there are saying all right watching it line by line with their finger on the button. And like we do when you swear when you call three. Recent with her finger on the button. Was this right for the school to do. They certainly have the right to own because they warned her ahead of time if you deviate from the speech were gonna tiger my. Soul. Sure yes. But it was kind of a demon. You know it was. They cut her off because she deviate from the speech that she was talking about her personal experience and she has been critical in administration. Which they really didn't like. But they had told her ahead of time. You know we approach the spree the speech if you deviate from organic or might it just stinks. There's no way this gets approved if she hands it in her act you know here's my speech and by the way I'm going to bring up the fact that you guys did nothing when I was sexually assault. I'm torn because it's a deep move. It's something that had to be said or was it the right place to do what it is is that as a commencement speech the right place to do. Well but we talk about this all the time yet is that. Is the is is a public forum like that where you have a lot of people's attention the right place to make a statement like that no. But if she made it somewhere else it wouldn't get that kind of attention you know we talk a Robert demeanor Dinara yesterday which are taking me I mean if if it wasn't in the public forum like that it wouldn't have the same impact so is that the right place. Certainly the wrong place either she's valedictorian. She earned that speech she has had her personal experience on. You know would we have censored an article in the school newspaper that have been critical of her that have been critical the administration there. On my experiences that now that though you know that that kids that right for the school paper those articles aren't approved ahead of time and good to be and so. Why is that OK but her in that speech that. 5767798. What's your reaction to this. Was the school in the right was it the wrong place to do this and should she have been cut off by the administration 5767798. Texan at 22980. The Dave Jamie -- your calls and text coming up next. Was this school in the rights 5767798. A California high school valedictorian. Misses in. Was a Petaluma so you say Petaluma school. She was giving it the microphone for four minutes into her I'm sorry for her speech in four minutes in she decided to change the topic can go off script. And she was cut off by the administration. In my experience. Gets weird. She got eighteen at mistreated Thai attack. That he may be it carries it. Well we not to speak. To Jane it's eighteenth which is why. Even when some people aren't you can't fit those scenes peek. She had gone off script she didn't say the the submitted skirt that she'd given to the administration that was approved. And she was going to start speaking at that point I guess about sexual assault in the response on campus because she had filed a police report about a sexual assault. And anyone go down that road 5767798. Was it right by the school to cut or offer should they have let her finish what lesson was learned here. The thing is that she didn't get very far into the statement critic Barack right so they didn't know exactly she was gonna say now my guesses the administration is aware of her because she. And now has as my English or the past and my guest has been critical of the administration in the past so they might have been aware. Of that that the possibility might come up. But what it means is that somebody. Who is behind the button to turn the Mike off yes is following along with the script of the speech that she turned it word by word war. And the second she went off script they cut her Mike. That means that was somebody's job to sit there and make sure that she stuck to the script. I know some people are gonna say time and place and she was told stick to the script but I feel like this this lesson that she learned is. Joseph speak out conform. Or you're out that's the lesson that this parole or maybe it's like hey. And welcome to adulthood. But she left of the original script because she knew them don't like it. Torre to go to Stanford and and so sad that that's not. Find the tax but somebody said that wasn't this is not the time or place for her to bring up from personal experience starts on graduation is about everyone not just about her. It's not time or place for her to bring up her personal experience. Your valedictorian speech is about your past and about what you hope for the future I think it's absolutely your time to ramp or personal experience. Because if she really went through sexual assault like that she still became valedictorian that's amazing that's a hell of a story. And and a hell of an in power story to be telling people and that's a message you wanna have shared. The phone's height 76 sevenths. They do is get yourself for Ottawa electric shuttle. Art it beat out got a lot of guts. I think I think. If she had in its you can get it boils down to a write rights free speech. OK also the fact that I don't know why they which insert her in monitor speech to begin with because she earned the right to make that speech. Well I I would I will say. They have to approve the speech and her Dana talking about this yesterday and Dana and parks and she can't submit a script it says. And I remember Larry the science teacher who is a serial rapists and sold me cocaine. Like they have to make sure we know you're going to say conforms that you just can't say any prying. So is O'Brien there is a reason why they wanted to prove scripts at least that they believed a valedictorian is gonna stick to. There as far as I'm concerned they need to clean up her act as far as the administration. Now that that's the whole deal right there. Brian thanks much for the phone comment glad to have beautiful it's good to hockey about 91 KM BZ what's up a team. Our runner up aid. No. Why. Seemed. So. Yeah. She was she filed a police report for sexual assault and if she doesn't feel that the school did enough. Absolute straight through smarter I don't know what we're not there weren't you know sure you are. Everybody I'm pretty dark room. There's been filed and I don't know what it is. One. At I mean there's a water quote would go Kart for internal. And it now more. Ebitda. That are a little a little that it would it would mean it is. I wonder you you bring up an interesting point I wonder if cash I don't know JB if they don't cut and hawking getting here from event thanks for the phone call. If they don't cover off. Do we humor about the speech if for thirty seconds or 45 seconds. She's talking about tennis. Do we hear about. The school's response. And her displeasure with that. Because we're talking about it because she was cut off it is such an important topic especially in the meat to movement we two narrower and right now that's possible yes it's possible she got more although. All we know about her though is that she was assaulted and was speaking about it and we didn't really get to get to hear the full extent of her message or her story. By the cutting off but I it's getting a little more attention than it would otherwise let's talk to Chris Dunn KM BZ Christa did the school to the right thing. And politically I. Act now to meet its Q. Or at her classmate and inspire them through that at ten years well you know. Not every little effect saying that she and but that is a trend in the play and we'll article on the same here. Act speech and rural eight said OK at that speech cheaper I didn't see each day. Yeah they're different ball real quick shipper federal what does somebody in kkk without. At least. That would push the button where it. Tell it and allow. Look to be broken our seniors to allow them duplicate from another. School that we're one at that speech meant. I am. Get cranking that excited about it you learn from that what happened there are. I want to bash the system not that I'm gonna play. Krista thanks for your phone call. 5767798. Or texted at 22980. Over on our FaceBook page I Nathan says that similar. Time and place this was neither she was prewar and chose to ignore perhaps to as she should have been removed not allowed to walk across the stage. This is a little bit unsympathetic. Tim writes welcome to the real world young lady tied to stop crying. She was sexually assaulted him yeah she she was sexually assaulted brother. A lot of that on the tax on the region foreign around duels were rules according to you guys yesterday and maybe she learned not to break the rules. She knew issue because I she just got script that's the result which she knew how to time six to the script or shut up it's not a soap box. Or around I mean. I give her credit for going for it I understand the rules are rules than I ever. Because again. She's now getting her message about is some people this is the problem somebody on FaceBook said she just wants her fifteen minutes and I I do not believe she was doing it for the attention of I want the spotlight on me I believe that when peoples a lot of times when people stand up for causes they do because they wanna see change they want peace to the school because this is gonna be the last person in this area to be assaulted actually. They want change they want the authorities to step up and make change and and that's because again I believe that there are a lot of people they're gonna criticize her it's issued just wants attention and I believe she was standing up for something greater but. Rules are rules.